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Two for one? 
9th-Oct-2007 06:47 pm

I'm torn on Serizawa/Hikari issue. Are they one and the same? Or are they separated beings? I put them on the poll here as being the same character, mostly to avoid confusion, but I really am not sure if they really are.

Sometimes, I wish Hikari would simply assume Serizawa's form so I don't have to agonize over the subject. But if that is the case then, there would be no meaningful scenes of Ryuu and Serizawa besides those shown in the flashback. There would also be no intense confrontation between Ryuu and Serizawa (who was still Tsurugi and didn't remember being Serizawa). Not to mention that Serizawa would certainly not be alive/survive had Hikari not merged with him.

I'm not really sure what my point here is. All I know for certain is that Tsuburaya had never defined any clear-cut rule regarding the relationship between an Ultra and his human host. The line is even sometimes blurred within the same series, let alone across different Ultra series.

(Oh, and I may have said this somewhere already, but I have a special fondness for the Ultras who make their own human forms (not that I don't like the ones who do use human hosts, Tsuburaya's inconsistency on the subject notwithstanding). For me, there is some certain morbid enjoyment in seeing these Ultras, who have no true understanding of human knowledge to guide them, display their awkwardness, in following their fish-out-of-the-water experiences here on this planet called earth where they can never truly be the same as the natives no matter how much they try to fashion their outward appearances and mannerisms to fit in. Seriously, it's a disaster waiting to happen when they eventually and inevitably commit some mishaps. (Wish I have some specific examples, but my knowledge on these "non-hosted" Ultras is woefully lacking. My head is even too much a blank at the moment to attempt to come up with some (usually) amusing incidents caused by misunderstanding or misinterpretation on Mebius' part.))

EDIT: Thanks for interesting discussion(s). :)
Moebius & Rasshii
Comments 
(Deleted comment)
(Deleted comment)
10th-Oct-2007 05:03 am (UTC)
Huh, I'd never thought of Original Ultraman as having an agenda. Though he kinda does, doesn't he?

I like your theory that the human/host experience is different for everyone -- it makes a lot of sense.
10th-Oct-2007 06:34 am (UTC)
That's all right. I really enjoy reading your thoughts as well. :)

You're right, Serizawa is in many ways similar to Hayata. Although for me I think Serizawa seems to have more experiences (not really substantiated by anything shown in either series, just my feelings).
(Deleted comment)
10th-Oct-2007 03:58 am (UTC)
I don't think Hikari and Serizawa ever officially separated, or at least they skimmed over it. (spoilers, if you're concerned about that kinda stuff) In episode 50 Ryuu tries to attack Emperor-seijin on his own but ends up being destroyed, or at least would have been. Hikari jumped in to save Ryuu, hence Ryuu became Hikari's host. I'd guess Serizawa was lost somewhere in that final battle, as before Ryuu goes insane Hikari fades out as if reverting back to human form, or dying. Since Serizawa was technically dead when Hikari picked him up, it may have been time to let Serizawa['s body] go.

...all just a guess/my speculation, though. And kinda scatterbrained, I apologize.
10th-Oct-2007 04:28 am (UTC)
Y'know, you might be onto something there... No one notices when a bunny disappears in the middle of a fight.

(Of course, someone might get a little suspicious when the bunny pulls out a space pen/pulls red glasses out of its non-existent pockets/suddenly starts wearing rings/whatever. So there are a few minor inconveniences in the plan.)
(Deleted comment)
10th-Oct-2007 05:04 am (UTC)
Yes, story... More, please?? *makes with the puppy dog eyes*
10th-Oct-2007 06:48 am (UTC)
Hey, all Goh has to do is wave his arms around. A bunny could wiggle its ears or something.

I was about to say that Goh doesn't need any transformation item. :)

Looking forward to more of the story too.
10th-Oct-2007 06:45 am (UTC)
Well, Ultramen used to be humans so I suppose it's like humans in their space exploration and in sci-fi in general: they're looking for something like themselves. So while they may respect other life forms, they're naturally more interested in Ultra-like creatures in the same way humans are interested in human-like creatures.
10th-Oct-2007 04:13 am (UTC)
When it comes to Mebius' mishaps the only thing I can recall is Sakomizu's birthday. He seemed to catch on pretty quick for everything else, enough to fly under the radar at least. As for just awkwardness, I'm very fond of the little scene in ep 2 where they're eating and Mirai tries the curry before realizing it rocks. <3
I may be wrong, but I think Seven and Mebius are the only ones to not use hosts? So unfortunately that course of action is incredibly underused.

To me, it always felt (and sounded) like Serizawa was speaking as Hikari. The only time (that I can remember, there may be one more, but even after flipping through episodes I can't find anything) I thought it was actually Serizawa was when he was talking to Ryuu before his departure in episode 17.
The host thing really frustrates me, I just wish all Ultras would make their own form. :( I guess I shouldn't really be watching Ultraman for the Ultra/human interaction, but that's what's most interesting to me.
10th-Oct-2007 04:35 am (UTC)
>>I guess I shouldn't really be watching Ultraman for the Ultra/human interaction, but that's what's most interesting to me.

I would love to someday see a series that concerns M78 entirely--but human-Ultra interaction? FTW, man, FTW!
10th-Oct-2007 04:58 am (UTC)
Have you read UltraZero Story? It's a lot more M78-centric than most of the series. (And has some intriguing back story...)

The Mebi manga looks like it'll be pretty much M78 focused from the whole two pages I've seen of it. :P (Want. To. See. MORE!!!)
10th-Oct-2007 05:06 am (UTC)
I have indeed. *pokes bookshelf* That series is enough to make me believe in the kindness of strangers--I got my tanks through other fans, who refused to let me pay for them. *sheepish* Mabune's Ultra art is godlike and the human!Ultras can be incredibly pritti. Me and seiza agree that Golian is *whipped*. :D

Timeline being as it is, I don't think the Emperan Wars are going to feature at all. That battle/period of occupation, to me, is what really got the Ultras together as warriors, set the Garrison in motion and sent an officer down to a little ocean planet far, far away.
10th-Oct-2007 06:47 am (UTC)
I want too!! So curious. Of course, UltraZero Story seems pretty interesting in its own way. And then there's the Ultra comics which may or may not be canon but sure look cool.
10th-Oct-2007 02:49 pm (UTC)
Last time I was at Kino theyhad at least one volume. (#4, unfortunately). Want me to pick it any and all up for you?

(Yes, this is on my list to be translated. Just a little distracted at the moment.)
10th-Oct-2007 08:44 pm (UTC)
Prob better if I try to get them all in one go. Sis said she'd be in SD in Dec so I'm hoping she can go to Book Off when she'd down there.
(Deleted comment)
10th-Oct-2007 05:09 am (UTC)
a), b) and c) would make for interesting writing. :D

I have my own theories. Put down in code in my little sketchbook, in case some non-fan discovers it and makes the connection between the faceless figures and blobs I put down. Good lord. Not only is she an Ultraman fan--she's actually has a sex drive ONOEZ DDDDD:
10th-Oct-2007 06:49 am (UTC)
Well, in round 1 Taro popped out in full adult form. :p Only round 2 did they rewrite that so that Taro was a kid who learned from his parents. So we might argue that they just have reduced sex drives if any at all.
9th-Dec-2007 09:29 am (UTC) - Ultras and human mating
Anonymous
I suspect the Ultras practice "karezza" or "male continence". Look both of those terms up. I understand these methods were practiced more widely on Earth in the past. I don't think human sex would entirely be a foreign concept to the Ultras. The Ultras do come in male and female models.
10th-Oct-2007 05:07 am (UTC)
IIRC, non-hosted Showa Ultramen are Seven, Leo (and I assume Astra? -- need to watch more), and I think Eighty and Yulian, though I could be wrong on those two since I've seen absolutely no Ultraman 80. And I can't figure what the deal is with Tarou...

Are there any non-hosted Heisei Ultramen? I don't remember any, but my understanding on the Heisei series is a lot more limited.
10th-Oct-2007 05:12 am (UTC)
T, D, G, A...N, C, J...

Justice, possibly.
10th-Oct-2007 07:19 am (UTC)
Yeah, I think Ultraman Justice makes his body. (Maybe spoilers... I still don't get why Justice takes a female form when the Ultra form is clearly male...and confuses the issue further by using a female voice when speaking, but the grunts are male sounding.)
10th-Oct-2007 07:24 am (UTC)
[spoiler?]Ultra Hermaphrodite? Or taking the disguise one notch further ala 21?[/spoiler?]
10th-Oct-2007 08:33 am (UTC)
(Just fixing my html code; thanks for letting me know the way to do it correctly. :)

[spoiler?]I have no idea actually. ^^;; There isn't anything (that I can remember) in the Cosmos movies that explains why Justice does things that way at all. I don't think he/she is a hermaphrodite, though. It is probably as you said, just an elaborate disguise. (Although I think Seven 21 talks as a male in Ultra form?)[/spoiler?]
9th-Dec-2007 08:33 am (UTC) - TARO
Anonymous
Kataro Higashi of Ultraman Taro was a human host. We clearly see Kataro in episode one. He did not just show up like Dan Moroboshi. Astra did not have a human form.
10th-Oct-2007 06:56 am (UTC)
There are also Ultraman Leo and Ultraman 80, who don't use hosts. They both make their appearances in Mebius series as well.

I agree that Serizawa seems to speak as Hikari most of the time, which is the main reason I want Hikari to just make a body. Why use a host when you're not going to let it have its own thoughts or let it do things by itself sometimes?
10th-Oct-2007 04:56 am (UTC)
Yeah, I've spent too much time thinking on this with no good conclusions... My current theory on the matter now is a little weird, but goes as follows: Previous to Ultra Mother's miracle in episode 11, there really wasn't any kind of joining or anything. Tsurugi took Serizawa's body and basically kicked Serizawa off into a corner. So previous to ep. 11, it's all just Tsurugi. Afterward... I half wonder if Tsurugi didn't actually die/go away altogether. So Ultraman Hikari would be Serizawa revived as an Ultraman. His line about "There is Ultraman in me" in particular is what makes me come up with this theory. Alternately, the scientist later known as Tsurugi gets revived and merged with Serizawa so they end up being one single being, rather than two separate entities -- though I don't find as much evidence to support this theory. (Admitted, I need to re-watch Hikari Saga.)

(This theory, by the way, make me think that Serizawa's kind of a jerk for not coming back, considering how upset Ryuu was that he didn't. I still haven't come up with a good reason for him not doing so that doesn't either assume it is the Will Of The Almighty Plot or because of slashy reasons.)

This gets even more confusing at the end, when Hikari goes and saves Ryuu, and where things go from there. That first fight it's pretty obvious that it's Ryuu completely in control since, well, previously Hikari had always been reasonably competent. In fact, for that episode it seems to me that Hikari took a vacation and just sort of handed the Knight Brace over to Ryuu with a note saying "here, knock yourself out." I guess maybe he was so tired out from the earlier fight that he was unconscious through the latter one or something...? And then woke up at the end to fly off into the sunset.

(Of course, that all gets more confusing if one believes this various hints dropped about that Ryuu may still be able to transform into Hikari. How the heck does that work, post-series?? I guess Hikari comes back at some point or something...)
10th-Oct-2007 07:52 am (UTC)
Well, a lot of body take overs are rather thorough, aren't they? I'm no positive, but Hayata was pretty dead when he was taken and then got to live again at the end through Unidentified Ultra Miracle TM. Serizawa revived as an Ultraman almost makes it sound like the human's the one in charge and seems rather strange since Ultras are kind of the other way around.

My limited, non-Japanese understanding of it is that there's Ultraman Hikari pre-Tsurugi who just bums around doing off-world research. Then when Bogal dies, the advanced life forms of Arb join with Hikari in the same way a human might kind of sort of join with an Ultra except that it's always been the Ultra that forced or enacted the joining, sometimes with help in Ace's case, I hear. These Arb beings are pretty advanced and more than one of them joined with Hikari so I think they had a really strong influence on him. Probably not too different from ghosts inhabiting a body too. In that respect, I can see where he'd practically be an entirely different person, esp if the Arb side of him alters his psyche. I don't exactly know why the Arb beings were talking to Hikari about the other Ultramen but they seem to know about them. Anyway, I figure Hikari + Arb beings = Tsurugi. Arb part of Hikari is done with their life mission once Bogal is dead, but then Ultra Mama separates the Arb part of him that also happens to be giving him special powers, including the Armor of Vengeance. So Hikari saying that there is Ultraman in him is more like saying he has the normal Ultraman desire to protect life, not just the Arb-side that was making him want to kill Bogal for revenge.

As for Serizawa, I really do think that Tsurugi was flying by, saw a dead human whose body he could use, and took over that body. Kind of like Ultraman crashing into Hayata's plane and taking his form. So Serizawa was just a host like Tsurugi says but Tsurugi also has his memories and they affect him because Hikari is basically a nice guy and the Arb guys were originally nice guys too and apparently beings that could join together like those little glowing lights of theirs.

Must admit that Ultraman King just tossed the Knight Brace on Hikari and let him go at Bogal. Didn't help since he had no training and got his ass kicked. But since it takes rookies like Mebius quite a bit of time to master being an Ultra warrior, well, guess Hikari-Ryuu wouldn't be much better. I dunno. For some reason or anther Ultraman King warns Hikari about something or another when fighting Bogal. Dude, and I can't believe they brought Ultraman King into the current storyline. -_- I would think they'd drop him, but instead their inclusion of him is almost like saying he's part of canon. o_O

But otherwise, I don't think too much about the Ryuu as Hikari thing much. Haven't gotten far enough and still not fond enough of Ryuu. But Zoffy borrows Sakomizu and it's definitely not Sakomizu being Zoffy. And the GUYS join powers/souls to be in Mebius so maybe Ryu and Serizawa joined in Hikari for a wee bit but having 2 brains control 1 body caused trouble. Maybe more likely Serizawa was at the end of his inner strength and needed Ryuu to take over for a little bit? Hikari has no Knight Brace in the later half of Hikari Saga ep 2 so I'm pretty sure the Knight Brace is just for extra powers not for his identity.

Anyway, I'm probably no longer making sense. But I am really jealous of Hikari for getting more time with Zoffy than Mebius. I really like Mebius.
10th-Oct-2007 06:36 pm (UTC)
Actually, all of your comment really makes sense to me.

I wonder what kind of lifeforms the Arb beings are. But I do like your description: the Arb beings certainly seem to possess Hikari like a spirit possessing a body. Their...sort of taking away Hikari's will, or rather unnaturally feeding his desire for revenge...is what I don't like much about the Arb beings, for all their supposedly being more intelligent/advanced/superior than other races.

Yeah, Hikari is shown practicing with Zoffy in Hikari Saga. But then I don't think Hikari and Zoffy are really supposed to be on earth, since there are someones else to watch over the rookie already: the Showa Ultras and maybe Sakomizu, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, I really like Mebius too. :)
10th-Oct-2007 08:56 pm (UTC)
Well, I think the Arb beings really had never practiced aggression before Bogal came about. And that's only the vengeful Arb that possessed him. In Hikari Saga 3, it seems the more peaceful Arb beings are determined to repopulate their planet and are just being helpful. At least I'm guessing that has something to do with the truth of a warrior, protecting rather than killing out of spite. Not entirely sure.
10th-Oct-2007 08:26 am (UTC)
Previous to Ultra Mother's miracle in episode 11, there really wasn't any kind of joining or anything. Tsurugi took Serizawa's body and basically kicked Serizawa off into a corner.

I'm liking your theory very much. Certainly explains Serizawa's rather unpleasant attitude since it was Tsurugi in control.

Afterward... I half wonder if Tsurugi didn't actually die/go away altogether. So Ultraman Hikari would be Serizawa revived as an Ultraman.

Not that I don't agree with you, but then how do you explain the end of 49, where Serizawa basically disappeared? Who was in Hikari's body flying off at the end 50? Anyway, this is all very confusing...

I guess maybe he was so tired out from the earlier fight that he was unconscious through the latter one or something...?

I've always wondered why Hikari didn't at least help Ryuu a little so that fight with the final boss wasn't so awkward and one-sided. Haven't thought along the way you put it before. Glad that Hikari wasn't so selfish after all. (Now if I could figure out who Hikari really is...)
(Deleted comment)
(Deleted comment)
11th-Oct-2007 11:22 am (UTC)
Yeah. I think he eventually took over a body to go do the Ultra BBQ too but was running a little late. I half think that maybe it just makes for a quicker uplink. If he has the host he intends to borrow there and ready for him, then he doesn't have to fly all the way to earth. Helps also that Sakomizu is the GUYS leader and can give them a nice pep talk. But otherwise, I don't think Sakomizu has any control over Zoffy. More likely, Zoffy could force himself on Sakomizu if he wanted but he's too nice of a guy to do that. But then again, as we all know, Zoffy-nii is special. His situation can't be compared to Hikari's with Ryuu.
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